Value-First Revenue Architecture - Mar 5, 2026

[00:00] **Introduction** Pedro Miquellasso: Good afternoon, LinkedIn friends, Value First Nation. Welcome to another episode of Value First Delivery here with Aaron Wiggers talking about emergent adaptation over adherence today. Aaron, how you doing? Aaron Wiggers: Doing great. Yeah, excited for this one. This is like one of my favorite parts of the whole the whole experience.

[00:27] **Emergent Adaptation vs. Adherence to Initial Plans** Pedro Miquellasso: Right? Um and man, we could put this to bed so quick if we could just like say like this is what happens if you don't think about everything from a CYA like contract perspective. Pedro Miquellasso: Um, uh so I'll share the the commitment uh first and then we can dive in. Um, it's uh, we will adapt to emerging needs, not just adhere to initial plans. Pedro Miquellasso: This means we will uh build feedback loops that provide continuous insight rather than just milestone reviews. Pedro Miquellasso: We will adjust approaches based on what we learn rather than strictly following initial plans regardless of new information. Pedro Miquellasso: We will recognize and respond to unexpected opportunities that emerge during delivery, rather than limiting scope, rather than limiting scope to original specifications. Pedro Miquellasso: We will maintain flexible resources that can adapt to evolving priorities, rather than optimizing for predetermined efficiency. Pedro Miquellasso: And we will value learning and adaptation over predictability and control, rather than treating change as project failure. Pedro Miquellasso: And and folks, in a world where AI is doubling in capability every couple months, I don't know how you can embrace anything other than this. Uh thoughts, Aaron?

[02:12] **Quantum State Projects** Aaron Wiggers: No, for sure. I um, I think I was reading some of the the notes earlier and it it was like the the idea of the project being a quantum state where at any given time there are X number of potential outcomes and you're basically planning for probabilities rather than, you know, assuming um static items. Aaron Wiggers: Uh and I think that's that's important because you don't want to see that as failure because it's it's fundamentally not a failure. Like the people upstream from from the delivery like did the best they could with the information they were given. Sometimes new information comes to light. Aaron Wiggers: If you're doing things right, every time some new information is going to come to light because you've got people, more people, more voices that want to be part of the conversation. And I think that's not that's not an indication of a failure to me. Aaron Wiggers: I think the the most important piece is how you manage those changes. Aaron Wiggers: Um, where it's a strategic conversation rather than a wish list. Aaron Wiggers: Um, because I'm, I'm very guilty of this myself. Um, but people tend to have that like shiny object syndrome where it's like, oh, I want to do this thing because it's cool or because I, I saw it on LinkedIn and I want to give it a try. Aaron Wiggers: It's like that's that's great, but it needs to be put in this like strategic context of what are how does this, how does this make our probable outcomes different? Aaron Wiggers: Um, and how do we kind of collapse those quantum states into like more solids um through this process of understanding what the change actually is and what it means. Pedro Miquellasso: Yeah.

[05:12] **Importance of Trust and Alignment in Projects** Pedro Miquellasso: And uh it really starts with like trust and alignment on the right outcomes. Um, I continue to be reminded every day right now, how powerful like picking the right outcome is just to to have a path. Pedro Miquellasso: That is not so dysfunctional. Um, in terms of avoiding uh you know, team politics and and just interpersonal stuff that gets in the way. Technology change that's inevitable, do we have the right license or not? Pedro Miquellasso: Like all these things, um and like I'm reminded of that because of the concept of unified customer view where uh what it enables at the heart of it is like can we have a reasonable productive conversation about what our options are right now. Pedro Miquellasso: And then make a decision that we are confident in is the right decision based on the information that we have, right? Pedro Miquellasso: And when you can find an outcome that is easier to like to get alignment on, like to get buying, right? It it doesn't matter how close you are to that outcome. Pedro Miquellasso: But now you can have conversations like, all right, is that shiny object going to help us get the unified customer view or not? Aaron Wiggers: Right. Pedro Miquellasso: Right? And if it's not, then we're not doing it. Or we're changing the outcome of the unified customer view, right? Pedro Miquellasso: One of those things. Pedro Miquellasso: And like in this the third bullet of recognize and respond to unexpected opportunities that emerge. Pedro Miquellasso: It doesn't say do them. It doesn't say do the thing or build the thing or like you're definitely going to go off track and and do like whatever out of scope stuff comes up. Aaron Wiggers: Right, right. Pedro Miquellasso: Right? Uh like that's the fear, right? Pedro Miquellasso: Like either we make it, people want flexible. Right. Pedro Miquellasso: Like because they know that this stuff is going to happen. And when we're trying to protect ourselves at like this out of scope versus in scope debate, like almost always forces just bad bad decisions. Aaron Wiggers: Right.

[08:41] **Challenges of Managing Change** Aaron Wiggers: And and just leads to friction in the like like the relationships among the teams, whether it's their internal team, your internal team, the collaboration between your two teams, um, where yeah, it just gets it it's it's unnecessary friction that can can be avoided. Aaron Wiggers: Um, but but yeah, I think having it it's you got to balance it, right? Aaron Wiggers: Because I was thinking about this quote, I think it's from atomic habits, um, where it says you don't rise to the level of your goals, you fall to the level of your systems. Aaron Wiggers: Um, I feel like everything that we're kind of talking about in this series is optimistic and assumes that we're working with people who are mutually wanting to share that value. Aaron Wiggers: Um, and so I I just want to like, I don't know, put it out there that like it's okay to to CYA. Aaron Wiggers: It's okay to to do that because you're not, you never know who is just trying to make a buck or get something for free or or whatever. Aaron Wiggers: So um having that anchor in this like flexible process of like we're, we are aligned on the outcomes. Aaron Wiggers: We are rowing in the same direction. Aaron Wiggers: We understand that that direction might change and having a commitment on both sides of of really thinking about the strategic value. Aaron Wiggers: So I think, yeah, that was kind of a rambling answer but the I I think the mutual commitment to value um is something that is important and not really talked about enough. Pedro Miquellasso: Yeah, for sure.

[11:47] **Importance of Assessing Trust Levels Before Projects Start** Pedro Miquellasso: And I'm with you like there's lots of, excuse me. Pedro Miquellasso: There's lots of scenarios like where like NDAs needed and like you just have to include these things to do job or to get to create value. Pedro Miquellasso: Um, just know that like like trying to figure this out, um, like figure out the level of trust before the project begins, like means everything in terms of how flexible and like how open everybody's going to be. Aaron Wiggers: For sure. Pedro Miquellasso: That when the inevitable comes up, like are you going to be able to have a reasonable conversation that isn't driven by stuff that it shouldn't be driven by. Aaron Wiggers: Right. Pedro Miquellasso: Right. Aaron Wiggers: And I think like by showing the these like pillars that we're talking about through this series, um, in the discovery process, in the presales process and having having a mutual understanding of like this is how you're going to get the most value out of this. Pedro Miquellasso: This is how I'm going to deliver that value for you. Um, and kind of putting everything in that context first of like, here's how we are aligned. Pedro Miquellasso: Um, and and that way you can kind of if if your anchor is there, um, you can kind of like pull yourself back to that point. Pedro Miquellasso: Yeah.

[13:38] **Importance of Focusing on End Users** Pedro Miquellasso: And really the goal of this whole series is is talking to both sides because like this contractual relationship management like has has been around for a while and you know, whether it's the CFO asking about hours and what was done for those hours and just creating this space where it's like, okay, you're kind of forcing me into a very strict contract. Pedro Miquellasso: Um, like both sides can can vet very differently on the front end to get to that point of where, yeah, everybody just wants value you know, for each other. Pedro Miquellasso: Um, and that like this tension around like well, if I just let you just do what you side to do then how can I hold you accountable, right? Pedro Miquellasso: Um, how do you, when you've thought about it in relationship to accountability, how have you helped, you know, maybe clients or your your agency partners like understand like, oh we we've got to make like not everybody might get it right now, but if we don't make this change to the scope right now, like it it doesn't matter or like getting past the worry of accountability like at that point, like, how have you gone about that?

[15:07] **Finding a North Star Metric** Aaron Wiggers: I think the way I've always approached it is finding a north star metric. Aaron Wiggers: Um, and that's a hard conversation because, you know, buying HubSpot, you want to do a thousand things with it. Aaron Wiggers: There's infinite possibilities for what what outcomes you could have. Aaron Wiggers: Um, and so getting people to really sit and think about what's one thing that I, I absolutely need this project to deliver on, establish that as your metric and be accountable to that metric so that even if, you know, things aren't playing out exactly the way you thought they would or some of the probabilities um caught you off guard, you can you can say, well, this is contributing to that North Star metric in this way. Aaron Wiggers: And you know, I'm going to hold fast to that um, that accountability because it's not subjective. Aaron Wiggers: It's a number that you can measure and like you should have a dashboard for it. Um, you should be looking at it at least once a week if not more than that. Um, and and yeah, just be able to, I think at the end of the day, everyone just wants to know that we're chipping away towards that goal. Aaron Wiggers: Um, and so it's also a great motivator as well to to let people know like, hey, we're we're making big strides. Aaron Wiggers: Here are the changes, here's um, here's how your effort is paying off as well. Aaron Wiggers: Um, and I I think that keeps everyone more or less focused on that primary outcome. Pedro Miquellasso: How have you helped if you see like the conversation either starts or is in the place of where it's not focused on an outcome and somehow the goal has become some kind of tactic or you know, something else. Pedro Miquellasso: Like how do you, how do you help people like move towards like an outcome based goal instead of, you know, the other kinds? Aaron Wiggers: Right.

[18:16] **Prioritizing Foundation Elements** Aaron Wiggers: Um, so I think a good example is a company that I worked with that um had a ton of leads, contacts in their CRM that had not been claimed by an owner, had not been talked to at all. Aaron Wiggers: Um, but then they came to to me and were wanting to run uh ABM campaigns. Aaron Wiggers: And I I was just kind of straight up with them. Aaron Wiggers: I was like, we can do that, but you're sitting on a gold mine here of people that you already know, like they're they're already enriched in the CRM. Aaron Wiggers: Um, they're ready for someone to reach out to them. Aaron Wiggers: So it's like if you can if you can't have reliable execution on some of the like foundational elements, I think it's important to call those out early and and before you say like, okay, let's move on to this next next thing. Aaron Wiggers: Um, because ultimately if you're not using what you already have, then what are the odds that you're going to use what I build for you? Aaron Wiggers: Um, you know, like and maybe that's a little selfish of me to just be like, use my stuff, but like everything I build, like I genuinely want it to improve someone's day. Aaron Wiggers: Um, and if I feel like that's not going to happen or there are better ways to make it happen, like I, I'm the first one to to advocate for that that end user. Aaron Wiggers: Um, and and then, you know, you kind of have this bank of uh leads to establish processes for so that now when we, when we do go into ABM stuff, everyone knows how it works, what they're looking for, how to reach out, you know, what to expect, um, what dashboards are relevant, um how to get their questions answered. Aaron Wiggers: Um so yeah, I think that's that's an important piece for sure. Pedro Miquellasso: Yeah.

[21:04] **Discussing KPI and Metrics** Pedro Miquellasso: Um, so how do you when it's KPI focused, like you mentioned the importance of a number. Pedro Miquellasso: Um, what uh because often that can lead to very strict scopes. Pedro Miquellasso: Um, uh how do you uh like have conversations around is that the right number. Aaron Wiggers: Right to be working towards? Aaron Wiggers: Yeah, I think that's that's critical and that's why those kind of initial north star conversations are so important. Aaron Wiggers: Uh, but you also need to have help help the client see this through the lens of what what you are actually in control of. Aaron Wiggers: Um, so for example, if they wanted the North Star metric to be, um, like SQL to, um, SQL to closed one uh conversion metric. Aaron Wiggers: I'm building the systems, but I'm not a salesperson. Aaron Wiggers: I'm not in there talking to people. I I can control the information that they have, but there's a level there of some of that is out of my control. Aaron Wiggers: And so I think the the conversation needs to be like what what can I do in this sprint, in this project, um that's fully within my control. Aaron Wiggers: Um, and so instead of the uh the SQL to closed one uh metric, I would recommend something like um you know, percentage of high priority properties on a deal that are filled out by the time it gets to a certain stage. Aaron Wiggers: Um, or adoption of playbooks within HubSpot so that you know people are using them, filling them out, um getting that data into the CRM. Aaron Wiggers: So it's a subtle change, like you should be able to argue that if this North Star metric that you've selected changes, their ultimate goal will be met. Aaron Wiggers: Um, but you just need to focus in on what you can realistically shoot for. Aaron Wiggers: Um, and and so yeah, I think it it's a delicate balance and it's definitely a hard conversation to have. Aaron Wiggers: Um, but that's where you really figure out like, hey, are we aligned on like what we're trying to do, how we're trying to get there? Aaron Wiggers: Like is this a collaborative experience or um does it feel more like being dictated to. Aaron Wiggers: Uh I know being an ordertaker is not. Transaction. Aaron Wiggers: kind of to be. Pedro Miquellasso: Yeah. Pedro Miquellasso: Yeah. Pedro Miquellasso: We want to want to avoid transactional relationships where we can. Aaron Wiggers: Right. Pedro Miquellasso: Um and that's like because I struggle with, you know, that kind of of like goal that you described is a common one like SQL to to close one or MQLs just as a number. Pedro Miquellasso: And that's where when we can ask questions about what they actually want behind that number, um, I'm seeing more and more people get to like connections, conversations and and relationships as the things that are like driving the like instead of leads and MQLs and instead of demos booked and instead of like uh, you know, uh opportunities or sales velocity. Pedro Miquellasso: It's like understanding what the status of the relationship, the health of the relationship is because if there's trust and like things go faster, right? Pedro Miquellasso: And what's fun and and why this like is easier now is because we've got, you know, our AI friends that can help us see these things at a scale we haven't been able to touch before and with nuance we haven't been able to touch before. Pedro Miquellasso: So I think that's a new element of helping people move off of maybe what they're used to is like, yeah, no, embrace the complexity because now as long as we tell AI why it's complex and what it's complex, like it can help it can help manage that. Aaron Wiggers: For sure. Pedro Miquellasso: and that's really that's the kind of stuff that's happening like week to week right now in terms of capability or new new things that are built on AI, uh, especially the pace that HubSpot is starting to develop like real time in client relationships. Pedro Miquellasso: It's like, oh, uh you can make uh contacts off of individual inboxes now. Pedro Miquellasso: That wasn't a thing last week. Pedro Miquellasso: That's a massive change. Pedro Miquellasso: And if we like weren't going to set that up because it wasn't scope like it makes no sense, right? Pedro Miquellasso: Right. Pedro Miquellasso: Um, and I think a lot of this when it comes to HubSpot and AI specifically, it's like we cannot prevent the client or the customer from understanding that that stuff is available. Aaron Wiggers: Right, right. Pedro Miquellasso: Right? Aaron Wiggers: been on projects where like halfway through um, some new feature in Ops Hub or some new calculated property feature has like completely changed how I thought about how we were solving the problem and when you're building for scalability, you want to use the latest, I mean, latest stable feature, so once it's like rolled out to everyone. Aaron Wiggers: Um, but yeah, you you absolutely want to be building for the future and it's it's like you can't do that if your scope is a snapshot in time. Pedro Miquellasso: Yeah.

[30:08] **Importance of Clear Communication** Pedro Miquellasso: And that's where like man, so much of this specific commitment comes down to how you start. Pedro Miquellasso: Right. Aaron Wiggers: Sure, sure. Pedro Miquellasso: Because I'm confident in all of our client relationships and what we're finding out is like the power of UI extensions, um as an example of basically creating whatever experience we want inside of a Hubspot record, right? Pedro Miquellasso: We're allowed to do that because we've got uh alignment on things like um unified customer view and the data model and what the overall experience they want to have inside of Hubspot. Pedro Miquellasso: I like we've maybe had like two UI extensions like scoped. Pedro Miquellasso: With AI plus like what we're learning about what that affords us, completely rethinking uh the value in doing that. Pedro Miquellasso: It's opening up other, you know, points of risk uh doing it that way. Pedro Miquellasso: But when you see like the client light up and this is where I've moved from like configuration only, try not to customize, right? Pedro Miquellasso: Try not to to do dev work if you don't have to to a place of of uh, you know, wow, like getting this foundation right of these two mechanisms and then add AI in. Pedro Miquellasso: So it's it's data model, like the true foundation of the business, right? Pedro Miquellasso: Uh, understanding that we all need a unified customer view, AI and then the platform, the developer platform in Hubspot which like flexes enough. Pedro Miquellasso: It's like doing highly customized work inside of configurable spaces. Pedro Miquellasso: It's it allows us to like say yes to almost anything that that they ask for. Pedro Miquellasso: And it's with great power comes great responsibility. Pedro Miquellasso: I mean we should build everything and we've definitely learned some lessons about when to use native and when to customize and how much we want to be responsible for for customizing on the platform. Pedro Miquellasso: But those choices at the beginning allow for almost everything to to be in scope from that perspective. Pedro Miquellasso: And it's such a good everybody it's enjoying that part. Aaron Wiggers: Right. Pedro Miquellasso: Right? Pedro Miquellasso: Like nobody wants to say no, we can't do that. Pedro Miquellasso: Whether it's because of the platform we've chosen or because it's in the contract. Pedro Miquellasso: Right? Pedro Miquellasso: Right, nobody actually wants it to to have to say that. Pedro Miquellasso: So this start of the process, I think is like that's how you get to uh the opportunity to be like adaptive and flexible, right? Aaron Wiggers: Right.

[33:51] **Discussing The Ecosystem of Tech Stacks** Pedro Miquellasso: And I think, I think it's helpful, it's helpful for me, um, but I have a science biology background. Pedro Miquellasso: But it's helpful for me to kind of think of the tech stack, um, for any given company as like its own ecosystem. Pedro Miquellasso: Um, because when I, when I think of it that way, um there's all kinds of like pressures that you can put on an ecosystem to have some effect or like make some change. Pedro Miquellasso: So, I mean, super simple example would be like if there's not enough rain, then, you know, the plants are going to die or whatever. Pedro Miquellasso: Um, so there are like things that you can control about the system, there are levers that you can kind of utilize. Pedro Miquellasso: Um, and the one of my favorite examples of this is, um, when they reintroduced wolves to Yellowstone, um, the like downstream ripple effects that that had as far as like, you know, other populations of animals thriving because, you know, the wolves ate their predators or like there are a lot of consequences within an ecosystem that you can't necessarily see unless you map it out really clearly. Pedro Miquellasso: And that's what I always, kind of where I always start is like map the whole system, figure out where your levers are and then kind of work backwards if they give you like, I want this North star KPI. Pedro Miquellasso: Um, kind of you you have you used a good word earlier the derivation, like figure out what goes into that metric and where your most effective levers are going to be and it might be something that's not like immediately intuitive. Pedro Miquellasso: Uh, and I think that's why it's important to be able to map it all out and then upload it to AI and say like, what am I missing here or, you know, upload it to AI and say based on these current metrics, where is the most room for improvement? Pedro Miquellasso: Um, so I think if you as a human can break down the systems into their smallest component parts and then talk to AI long enough to get some insights out of that, um, then then that's a much better start than really any any other way. Pedro Miquellasso: Any other way and you're just kind of making assumptions. Pedro Miquellasso: Like I never would have assumed that introducing wolves would cause like more trees to grow because why would it? Pedro Miquellasso: But it does. Pedro Miquellasso: And so like you can understand it when you map everything out. Pedro Miquellasso: Um, but you kind of have to be able to zoom way out and then zoom all the way back in and kind of oscillate between those two kind of quantum as well, um to be able to understand how best to affect change within that system. Pedro Miquellasso: Yeah. Pedro Miquellasso: Um it's like there's so man, um like just building it. Pedro Miquellasso: This is why the choice at the beginning is just so important. Pedro Miquellasso: Like if you choose this all of a sudden the same risks like turn into opportunity, right? Pedro Miquellasso: And I've been finding more reasons and I was uh happy to see it in the notes here, like when you can turn risks from bugs into features, right? Pedro Miquellasso: Like the opportunity to move that quickly and to change direction, right? Pedro Miquellasso: It's it can be a fine line between how flexible and agile you want the system to be. Pedro Miquellasso: But uh when you can turn reactivity like triage like the the um the viewpoint of like preparing for triage versus preparing for adaptation and like knowing things are going to show up and change and like it's the difference between a like a crisis mode mindset and like uh that's to we're going to add a lot of value like mindset instead like the avoidance goes away. Aaron Wiggers: Right. Pedro Miquellasso: For sure. Pedro Miquellasso: and the innovation like shows up, right? Pedro Miquellasso: Like and you really without that mindset and understanding I mean as much as you can about all the pieces, like everything you should have control over, you should definitely like understand what those things are. Pedro Miquellasso: And whenever there's parts of that picture missing, which often comes from somebody that's not in the room that should be in the room, right? Pedro Miquellasso: Like all of a sudden opportunity shows up, you know, left and right. Uh so um as like how do you like to lead as we kind of wrap, um or what's uh how should a client approach a contract that where there's so so much restriction. Pedro Miquellasso: Like the will is to to be like, oh, I don't, I don't like the phrase out of scope, right? Pedro Miquellasso: What what if something happens, right? Pedro Miquellasso: Like what is an effective way to either vet out the willingness to be flexible or to try and like maybe there's some language you can ask for in a contract that helps create the space for emergence. Aaron Wiggers: Right.

[40:24] **Flexible Contracts** Aaron Wiggers: One thing that I've always really liked, um, is having like a a bank of flex hours. Aaron Wiggers: Um, I know people want to get away from like an hourly breakdown, but some measurable unit that you can say, um, you know, this this will cover us and it could be depending on how complex the project is. Aaron Wiggers: If it's not super complex, maybe five, 10%. um, and it's baked into the contract uh, and then if you don't use it, you get it back at the end, like you you don't get charged for it. Aaron Wiggers: Or if you do use it, then you fully expected to use it and um, you know, that kind of that friction kind of goes away a little bit. Aaron Wiggers: Um, there are I would say even with more complex projects, especially like bespoke integrations, um, like if I can't just pull up the developer docs for whatever API you want to use, if it's behind a paywall, if it doesn't exist, I mean, you need like 30% flex hours on that. Aaron Wiggers: And so I think like you can be realistic in those contract talks about like, here's how much wiggle room I think I might need in a worst case scenario. Aaron Wiggers: And not worst case, but like biggest change scenario. Aaron Wiggers: And um, yeah, and just kind of have that established up front that way when they when you do have change requests, you can say, okay, well this is um, this is part of our flex hours, document that and then and you're you're good to go. Aaron Wiggers: Um so I've always really liked that. Aaron Wiggers: I think another way would be, um, to have more almost like milestone based but like outcome based um checkpoints where you kind of there's an understanding that like when we get to this point, we need to reevaluate and we need to understand what the next step is. Aaron Wiggers: So it's not so much of um, I guess it's just billing in smaller sprints, I guess where it's like, okay, let's let's get to this point, reassess, figure out what the next move is. Aaron Wiggers: Um, and kind of having an understanding of like each sprint is going to be X number of hours or X number of deliverables or however you want to break it down. Aaron Wiggers: Um, but but being able to kind of quantify the wiggle room, I think is really helpful up front. Pedro Miquellasso: Yeah, for sure.

[44:01] **Adaptive Phases for Projects** Pedro Miquellasso: So if we're asking if we're from the client's perspective, we might be asking for that extra bucket of hours or some we've been trying like some adaptive phases like where it's just that at some point like especially if you're going week by week or like sprints like you manage, there's some space in there where we're not, we're not be exactly sure what's going to happen here. Pedro Miquellasso: But we're calling an adaptive scope where it's like the extra stuff and it might relate to this and this and this and this. Pedro Miquellasso: But this is the space. Pedro Miquellasso: Like so if ideas come up, they either go there or they go in the backlog and not just the backlog like anymore. Pedro Miquellasso: Like not just out of scope list, the wish list, right? Pedro Miquellasso: Right. Pedro Miquellasso: So and really like I would think that that is a reasonable expectation for any business. Pedro Miquellasso: So that's kind of like your first your first signal like if if they're not willing to do that, then you know how how much change is involved in your business or what you want to accomplish, like probably not not a great fit. Aaron Wiggers: Right especially if you're communicating all of the things that we've been talking about in those early stages to where you know, you are genuinely committed to value rather than something rigid. Aaron Wiggers: I think when you frame it in that way, it doesn't, I don't know, it it doesn't feel as risky anymore. Aaron Wiggers: It doesn't feel like, oh, I'm not, I'm I don't I don't need the extras or or anything like that. Aaron Wiggers: It's like, no, I'm just planning for the experts to make different choices in the future if those choices are going to help this project. Aaron Wiggers: And like yeah, I think, um, yeah, having those conversations early so that you don't feel icky about it. Aaron Wiggers: I guess and so that nobody feels like, oh, they're just trying to get more out of me or like they're trying to inflate things. Aaron Wiggers: Like if it comes from a place of you want to get this outcome, here's our best guess. Aaron Wiggers: We think realistically there's about 20% wiggle room where we might want to do XYZ. Aaron Wiggers: Um, and if you can like outline some of the potential changes, I think that also helps a lot where you can say like, if we get into this integration and realize that, oh, the developer docs that were behind a paywall actually don't exist and they're not helpful. Aaron Wiggers: It's like then you can revisit like what does that mean for the project as a whole. Aaron Wiggers: And also that's a true horror story and it's not I wish it was the only time that had happened to me, but it's most of the time documentation is behind a paywall. Aaron Wiggers: Just assume it doesn't exist. Pedro Miquellasso: Yeah. Pedro Miquellasso: Yeah.

[47:45] **Building Strength** Pedro Miquellasso: Oh man. Pedro Miquellasso: That's a good, that's a good hint right there. Pedro Miquellasso: Um, and so much of that actually relates to our our topic next week. Uh the commitment for is we will build undistinctive strengths, not just apply standard methods. Pedro Miquellasso: And I think that's where AI like if somebody is interested in something that relates to your project and they're interested in AI and how it works, like that's the part where if you are, if you get protective of a scope in that way and just choose not to use a resource like that, it's not going to work out well. Pedro Miquellasso: Like and finding those being ready to be like, oh, all of a sudden we've got this capability over here. Pedro Miquellasso: Like our standard approach doesn't make sense anymore. Aaron Wiggers: Right. Pedro Miquellasso: Right? Pedro Miquellasso: Because you've got this resource we didn't know about, you've got this capability. Pedro Miquellasso: Hubspot has changed this thing, AI can now do it. Pedro Miquellasso: Like there's just so many ways to get disrupted. Pedro Miquellasso: Um, and like, you know, standardize where you can, but a lot of the value comes from like those customized approaches with the resources around to to support them. Aaron Wiggers: Right. Pedro Miquellasso: Like So I I have really like because I used to I used to estimate generally that a custom coded action in Hubspot to be implemented and like fully tested was about eight hours for like a back end developer. Aaron W