Value-First Leadership w/ Tony Dowling - Do we have to unlearn everything?

[00:00] **Introduction** Chris Carolan: Good morning, good afternoon, Value-First Nation. Welcome to another episode of Value-First Leadership with Mr. Tony Dowling. How you doing, Tony? Tony Dowling: Good morning. Good afternoon if you're on my side of the world as I like to say. I'm, I'm okay. [inaudible] it's my last week, formally, last week in work. When you work for yourself, you're never really off on holiday. But this is my last formal week and I'm, I'm starting to feel it a bit, Chris. I'm starting to wind down a little bit. So, yeah, looking forward to a nice Christmas break and a couple of, a couple of days lying in, a bit of catch up of sleep and all that kind of thing. But excited for today's conversation, as always. Chris Carolan: Very well, this is a well deserved break. Uh, I'd say for most anybody living in this world right now, trying to figure out what's going on with AI, how to, you know, lead through it. Obviously, that's what we're focused on in this show. And, uh, I think after the break, we'll get into some maybe more practical like implementation stuff. Uh, but, uh, yesterday, I finally started drafting this article with Claude. Um, it'll turn into an article, like it always does. I always end up creating something. Uh, but it was really about this question of and I think the easiest way to put it is something as simple as the statement failing to plan is planning to fail. Is that true? Tony Dowling: [laughter] Chris Carolan: And like if it wasn't, like, man, does that blow up like most of everything that we've learned about just how to survive in business, but also how to be successful? And, you know, I'm always wary that I'm not trying to like just justify the way I want to do things because I've never been great at planning and goal setting and all this stuff. But when I this stems from a place and talked about this on the helpline on Friday with Kyle, uh, and like when you see people still like putting effort into building slides, right? When I am learning every day, how a simple prompt can make an interactive digital experience come to life, especially in if we think about moments where we're trying to get buy-in and we're trying to make it look nice and all these things, it's like what do we do in building slides, Tony?

[07:26] **Do we have to unlearn everything?** Tony Dowling: I think it's a fascinating question and on the title, uh, you know, do we have to unlearn everything? The title of the of today's show is, it just, it's just huge. It's just, it's just a massive idea. But I don't think it's a new idea. Nothing under the sun is new as as they say. Um, and I think it's, it's also deeply rooted in our personalities, which is probably why I find it so interesting. Now as a leader, I think we are particularly vulnerable, uh, to to stay in our lane, right? So, um, a lot of people talk about comfort zones and a lot of people talk about how dangerous, uh, comfort, sorry, not dangerous comfort zones. Uh, a lot of people talk about how much growth, uh, happens outside of your comfort zone and you stretch and and all these things, right? But it's, it's naturally deeply uncomfortable for us. Our nature, I think, is to strive for the comfort zone and to strive for, if you look at someone like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you know, something as ubiquitous as that, right? Um, he flips it at the end when he starts to talk about self-actualization, but all of the foundational steps are about safety and heat and light and food and, you know, societal, uh, you know, it's really, you know, our, our drives are to, are to become comfortable as it were. But say from a, from a business perspective particularly, but from all sorts of other prehistoric perspectives, you know, you took the same walk that you that you've sort of bashed down through the book from your hut to the watering hole every day, and you're going to get, you know, some big furry nasty's going to jump out and get you, you know, because it's going to be waiting for you because it knows you go back and forth at the same work. And the same thing in business. But it's interesting how during the industrial phase, you know, during industry 1.0, actually, that strive to become comfortable, or put it in another way, the strive to optimize everything, the strive to tighten everything down, the strive to articulate everything, document everything, you know, replicate everything. It's really understandable. It's really understandable because you, you know, you we have simple machines, we have simple consumers, we have simple, uh, manufacturers. And now everything is just accelerating, is accelerating really, really quickly. So, see, I, I find this is almost, this is a massive, uh, massive question and it really plays, I've been reading, I don't know if you've read, um, the books, the Neuromancer books by William Gibson, the so-called father of uh, of um, Cyber, um, Cyberpunk. he's written half a dozen books, but the three I'm reading on at the moment are the Neuromancer is the first one and it's credited with inventing Cyberspace. So, there's a point to this. The point, the point that Gibson wrote about like in the '80s or the '90s before there was an internet and before certainly before there was Cyberspace and, and before there was AI, even though he's talking about AI then, you know, is how are we going to, how are our behaviors going to change? And that's the, that's the crucial thing. Right? What's not going to happen most likely is we're not going to rise up and tear down AI. We're not, you know, we're not, we, these, these patterns that are becoming established, we're just, we're going to react to it. We're going to, uh, absorb, we're going to, um, respond, we're going to evolve, right? We're going to evolve because of the stuff that we'll have. Now, if you're going to bumble along in your comfort zone on that same trail back and forth, the hut and the watering or making the same product that you've always made or serving the same market and the same customer that you've always served, you're not going to see this stuff coming. So, while, while I think there is a, you know, absolutely a case for repetition builds reputation. In, you know, getting things right iteratively, then there's absolutely a case particularly from a leadership perspective to keep your head up to see what's coming down the path. I think that's the crucial part, you know, and to almost almost actively avoid the comfort zone. So, if you look at it in terms of the product life cycle, you usually have an introduction phase, a growth phase, a maturity phase and a decline phase, you know. That's it, right? Every single product goes through that, um, that process. The only way you're not going to go through that is while you're in maturity is to unlearn what you've been doing and go and do something else. To pivot or to whatever you want to call it. And there's never been a time like there is now with our ability to do that. The ability to model, the ability to research, the ability to to craft prototypes and test prototypes and so on and so on. It's just not an expensive thing anymore. You know, it's just not rooted in those constraints as as you would call it, those constraints of the past. So this fascinating philosophical question is really pertinent today because, because everything's changed, because the way that we have to view those constraints has changed as well. Chris Carolan: Yeah. And like I said, I'm, I'm drafting, um, Tony Dowling: That's cool. Chris Carolan: Some kind of document that will be published at some point. Uh, and so we're going to go through a few of these because definitely, you know, as you're working with AI and it'll help you think in whichever direction you want to go. Um, so I'm going to put this in front of some people including Tony. Uh, and we'll go over some maybe some obvious ones or maybe some less obvious ones. Definitely they're all up for debate. Uh, there's so much nuance in all of this. And, um, but it often has to do with the the constraint of why these things, uh, were generated is kind of best practice advice or, you know, tried and true, uh, aspects of the day-to-day. So, fail to plan, plan to fail. Uh, this was, uh, assuming the constraint is that execution is expensive, you know, mistakes are costly to fix, information took time to gather and planning was how you reduced risk before committing resources. What's changed? When you can research, prototype, iterate, and pivot in hours instead of weeks, planning becomes overhead and the risk shifts from acting without a plan to planning without acting. And the new reality, orientation matters more than planning. I talked about this, it's kind of like north, the idea of North Star. As long as you have that, right? Um, and then if you can align yourself to act in the moment and adjust in real time, AI enables that in a way that we've never experienced before and it can lead to some really amazing, 100% unplanned, unexpected outcomes that can create a lot of value. Yeah. Tony Dowling: Now there are people out there, I, I'm, I, on Myers Briggs I come out as a INTJ. Um, in disk, if you're interested in, in this stuff, I'm a, I'm a D type, which probably be not much of a surprise to anybody. Um, but all, all those things point to the fact that, you know, you can almost describe, I'm that. I'm like this now. I don't like planning. I think probably like you, Chris. I'm, I'm not big on detail and it was really funny because as a successful salesperson, I became a sales manager like a lot of successful salespeople do, and then I, I kind of took to telling my reps, you know, you got to have a plan, you got to have a plan. which was really ironic because I never did. But what I, what I realized I did have was the North Star, you know, I, I had somewhere I was going and, and sometimes that was, that was really vague, right? But there are those of us who aren't the opposite to that, you know, they, they, they need to know. They, you my colleague Mark, my business partner, he's, he can't, I know he can't cope with the way I work and I can't cope with the way he works because he's meticulous. He will have it written down, he will have, you know, and, and we're both kind of discovering AI together and it's fascinating how much it brings us, uh, closer in terms of though, so that personality type, right? Or, or, or the behavioral type or whatever. You know, I, my detail is empowered by AI. I go, um, throw some plans together. And be out the plan comes. I can send it to Mark and he can go, yeah, check. That looks good and he can give me the summary. You know, he can lay out his, um, his long in-depth analysis and and what he wants to do. So, that, there's that aspect to this one as well. And as you say, it is very nuanced, you know. And the question becomes, you know, what, what why do you need a plan? A strategist will tell you, you need, you need that plan. Um, but out of all those businesses out there today, how many of them even have a strategy, much less stick into the strategy? I think me and you, we're amongst those who know the truth of that of this scenario. So, so yeah, so it's definitely it's, it's out the window. You know, for me, it's completely out the window. I, I'm not even sure he was ever the case. Um, and it's certainly not the case, you know, the constraint. That's what brings it to, you know, when, when, when research is really expensive, when doing all this stuff like in real life is really expensive, you, you did, like there's another one on there, I know I've seen, you know, the old measure, measure twice and cut once, um, which, which maybe we'll talk about. You knew why. You absolutely knew why. But I built an app, I was saying to you earlier, I built an app on Friday on Lovable for the first time. It's blown my mind. It's, and I, I, I've read, I must, it's boring because I know everybody says it. But I'm as far away from being a coder as you can be. I'm a HubSpot partner, but I'm not a coder. I can build workflows, but I don't know how to write code. Yet, there I am, I've built, I've built an app. I haven't built it. I've prompted an app that integrates with HubSpot and pulls a load of information out that I want and, and details it nicely and you know, it's just like it's, it is literally game changing, literally game changing. So, so you, you, this is where I love what, you know, what you're saying about unlearning things. You, you now have to unlearn. You have to unlearn and almost relearn and then probably unlearn again because you don't want to get stuck. You know, whatever we do, let's, let's not get stuck. Let's keep moving forward with it. Yeah. It's a, it's a really exciting time. Chris Carolan: I think, uh, you know, it, it does, you say you hear everybody saying it. We're in such a small, like, feels like this echo chamber where it is kind of that way. Um, but then you, you step outside of it and so many people are just so far away from this place. Um, that, yeah, it's to watch somebody get on with AI that's been the strategist, that's been the person that can understand markets like at scale, and then they don't have to rely on developers and all these other people, right? Um, one, it, it gets you to a place where again, you get to the outcomes much faster and then you can collaborate with those same people to then, you know, build on top of that instead of starting with like these brainstorming activities and um, like this is another one, right? set smart goals. The constraints, uh, specific, measurable, achievable, relevant, time bound. This framework assumed stable environments where you could predict what would matter in 90 days. Uh, what's changed? Time bound becomes the problem when conditions shift faster than calendars turn. A goal set in January may be irrelevant by March. Not because you failed, but because you've learned. Uh, the new reality, and I've been having success with this in my own scoping agreements. Like, because it just makes sense. Like, when you think about the reasons that people do not leverage AI but even HubSpot, you always get to a place where they do not trust it yet. Right? And it doesn't matter. This trust can be built in one day or one year. Right? If you don't hit that trust milestone, right? It nothing's going to matter. So progress happens when these conditions to create trust align, not based on somebody's calendar, like ever. Tony Dowling: And and again, I mean this one is so many, callies with the way that we work. If you take take any technical development job, any integration that we do on a, you know, well week, a week-to-week basis and the ones that work, the ones that are are good, the ones that are optimal turn out the best are the ones where the client trusts you. That you've agreed milestones. You've said this is, this thing is going to do this and it's going to do this and it's going to do this. And then, you know, when you come back to them halfway through and say, well, we didn't, we didn't anticipate this thing happening or um, you you weren't able to uh, surface this, uh, requirement at the time. You know that the the whole, the whole thing is, you know, we we all do it all the time and if you're lucky, you stay within the time scope, but that's rare. But almost invariably you'll end up with a product that looks radically different from, from where you started. That's just the way of things today. These, these things are so complicated. You don't, you know, as a contractor, you don't find a better way of doing something and then say to the client, oh, well, I'm not going to do that because that wasn't in the original scope. You do, you just can't do that anymore. You can't, you know, you go back to them and you say, forget everything. We need to start again. Like, you know, so and so's launched this tool or such and such has been developed or chat GPT can do this, Cloud can do that, whatever the thing's going to be. You'd be unfair to yourself and to the client by, by rigorously sticking to the, you know, the original path. So it it it's but but on the other hand again, you know, you've fixed that this one. This one makes me very itchy, you know, saying smart goals. We don't use smart goals. The trust based milestones. That that's what I love about this, you know, as as we move towards completion of a project or a relationship, contract, whatever it's going to be, you know, I much prefer the idea of, okay guys, we're going to get to the point where 90% of our team use Hubspot. That's a, that's a milestone. You know, that, that's what. And we can measure that and we and we can get there and it might take us four weeks, eight weeks or 12 weeks, we don't know, but we're going to continue to work to that. And if it becomes stymied, if it becomes like really much more difficult than we anticipate, which it will, by the way. We can adjust the workload accordingly, you know? So, so you have to have it. I'd be very interested in examining this one through the lens of non-technical work, you know, um, more traditionally, uh, where smart has really stood the test of time. Um, but for what we do and, and what anybody looking to embrace technology, uh, and looking to make the the most out of AI even as it is today, then it's, it's 100%. It's nailed on. You cannot be high bound. You just can't. Chris Carolan: Yeah. And I think that's, that's a good point and we're, we're going to see it, right? Because as AI makes its way in as an infrastructure, traditional like time-based activities are getting disrupted. Like, everywhere you look, even in the manufacturing space, and when you have customers coming together from their expectations of AI moving things faster, and they, they're not going to understand why things take a long time. And that's where I love the nuance that I just discovered and this runs through all of these. Like, none of these are, are likely to be just get rid of it, it has no value. Right? But smart goals, all you have to do is change the T from time-based to trust-based, right? And literally now it's going to be more valuable for you in, in this age that we're living in. That's the kind of nuance that we're going to see in most of these, right? Um, uh, next one, uh, let's see here. Like let's say the let's do the measure twice. Tony Dowling: Yeah, yeah. Chris Carolan: Uh, to cut. Uh, I love this one because my father used to tell me, he used to say this every time we used to do something together like DIY or, you know, working with wood or plumbing or anything. And there wasn't much of it. Um, but he he used to drum this into me all the time. So, I love this particular, I I'll say it myself, you know, I'll say it to my kids. Chris Carolan: Yeah. Tony Dowling: But it it's it's it's the constraint. Yeah, because material is expensive. You do not want to throw it away and start again. In fact, you may not be able to throw it away and start again. Unless you can. When you can, when you can just delete the app and rebuild from scratch or. Sorry, I I I stole your thunder there, Chris. Chris Carolan: No, this is where it gets exciting to think about and it's hard to connect all the dots. That's why I'm here. Uh, but when Google is doing material science research, right? They are researching ways around a lot of the scarcity we have around hard materials that exist in nature that, you know, we know work better, uh, but aren't always easy to come by. Uh, but that and so they're trying to actively work around this constraint where materials are expensive, mistakes are permanent, you know, precision before action, uh, saves resources, right? Well what's changed? You know, when cutting is cheap, right? I mean, and there's lots of home, uh, home improvement scenarios where you get extra screws and you get just extra stuff just coming in the box, right? That's already down this path or you can undo, iterate, and try again without significant cost, right? And this, this idea of shipping it like quickly, like perfectionism is what gets in the way. Tony Dowling: Yeah. This this this is the really interesting idea here. The, the speed of learning beats precision of planning. it's a fascinating idea. But perfection, perfectionism becomes the risk. I, I see this again, as a D type, you know, the personality that I am, I'm probably under prepared for any typical situation because I will jump in. Um, and I get very frustrated working with people who need to dot the eyes and cross the tees, you know, who want to look and look again, measure the people who want to measure twice and cut once because I've already cut and I've already moved on on onto the next one. So, this one really uh applies to me. appeals to me. But I've seen this also where perfection perfectionism really is a risk because beyond that it creates an enormous amount of anxiety, enormous amount of friction within the organization, enormous amount of it just slows things up and it can cause real harm. Um, my my son who's uh autistic, I mentioned before, you know, he suffers with perfectionism. What, what what the hell does that mean? Well, what that means is, it makes him so anxious, he won't even attempt some tasks because he knows he's going to make a mistake. You know, and I appreciate what, you know, that we're all on a spectrum, right? Autism is an extreme version of that, I guess or that's an extreme. But how many people are in that boat where they won't do a thing because they don't know that they can, or they're afraid to try. They don't want to look stupid. You know, this this is why I think this is so exciting Chris because it's outside of even our world of work, you know, these principles apply because the world is changing. We're not all working nine till five anymore and we don't all have to troop off to the factory and go to the factory school to be kept out of the way for nine till three and then do an exam that leads us to another exam that leads us to a university that gives us an exam that nobody cares about anymore, you know. The world is completely changing. So learning this stuff is is vital, I think. Just like learning, yeah, what we're talking about here is creativity, isn't it? Let's, you know, you could argue that all of these come under, let's be creative. And I think that's the solution to a lot of the problems we have today. Because the old ways don't work. You see it everywhere in politics, geopolitical situations all over all over the world, what goes on in the US, what's going on in Australia, what's going on in the UK. The old ways of working don't fix these things anymore. They just don't. They just, if they ever did. We've got to get more creative, we've got to take more risks, we've got to measure once and iterate and maybe start again because we can. Go for it. Go for it. Tony Dowling: I've lost your sound, Chris. Can you hear me? Chris Carolan: you got me. Yeah. Tony Dowling: There you go. You're back. [inaudible] Chris Carolan: Um, yeah, I uh, all these constraints and then how we respond to the constraints is like one big, like, reduced creativity package, right? That if you can unlock right now is is everything. Um, and this next one, I mean, this is I've been on about this one for a while and now I'm starting to find the words to like make it make sense where the power of just showing up every day, um, is overwhelmingly like the way I see people talking about, um, you know, less of the prepped and planned and more of just the like trying to add value every day is is significant. Um, but again, it I would never have termed it like this because I do believe this is a daily habit and routine that I've created, it's just way different, right? So the constraint, repetition builds mastery, consistent effort compounds, habits automated, the hard work of showing up. Uh, what's changed? Rigid routines can become containers for yesterday's work. When the right work changes daily, routine becomes productive procrastination. The new reality, consistent presence, not consistent output. The discipline is in showing up ready. The work itself stays fluid. Tony Dowling: And and the work must, you must, you must direct the work, not have the work directing you. So, with this is where we came in, right? Those you that you those years ago that we first started talking about AI and, and I remember and conversation that stuck with me, you know, is this idea imagine if if work, if the busy work, right? Imagine if the production of things went away. Imagine we don't have to produce anything anymore. And we see it already you know, the impacts that AI is having on things like the legal profession and so on and so on. When you don't, now, clearly, for anybody who is watching, clearly there's nuance to this as well, right? There are issues even with the statement I'm about to make. But when you can go into your AI and you can ask it for the precedence, ask it for the rulings, ask it for the insight, ask it for the thing, what it won't do for you is it doesn't have the genius, the inspiration. It doesn't have the ability to react to the to the manufacturing that it's done, the the thing that it's produced in the same way that you can and and a human can. So give the that example of um uh of an building an app earlier, uh, you know, all I added to it was the insight, the experience of being a 50-odd year old human who's got some knowledge of the world. You know, so when it said a thing, I could counter it with, well, what about this perspective or that perspective? I'm not doing any literally none of the work. And the people who are going to be good in this, you know, people like Nico and yourself, are, are people who are increasingly experienced with the different stuff that gets thrown up all the time. The more of that that gets thrown up, the more you'll be able to respond to it. So you don't have to make anything anymore. Or imagine if you don't have to make anything. Imagine we've got some kind of enterprise, you know, USS enterprise, Star Trek enterprise, fabricator in the lounge, you know, and you can go in and program in your breakfast or you literally we don't have to make anything. What are we going to be? What are we even going to be for? You know, how how many people, how many people are, are kind of value themselves based on their productivity, based on their, you know, the the what what they give to their firm or to their community or whatever. it's it's huge. These these are massive philosophical questions, you know. Um, and, yeah, you you you can imagine Chris Carolan: That will be the barrier that most people have to overcome. is figuring out this is what was learned. Chris Carolan: Yeah, figuring out what makes you happy from a this is my purpose perspective and not this is what I have to do every day to make money perspective. Yeah. Uh, is going to be massive and that's a lot of the reason I do all the content I do, uh, including, you know, Value-First humans with George and his superhuman framework and all that stuff. We you run into this point where it's like it should be so obvious that you would want to do joyful things like every day, but people, like we live in a world where you're not allowed. You're not allowed. Right? Um, and like, uh, that was a a good setup as you're as you're talking about this. Um, the, uh, like the ability to create like with speed. Um, you know, and I think the HubSpot ecosystem has been suffering from this for a while as as Hubspot like has moved so fast. There's lots of reasons not to batch your work. Yeah. But when it comes to create content, like because context switching was expensive. Batching similar tasks saved cognitive overhead. What's changed? AI handles much of the context. What you lose in batching, which is responsiveness to the moment, right? May cost more than what you save and I have a specific example I'll share. Um, but the new reality, real time responsiveness may beat batched efficiency. Match your rhythm to what's alive, not what's scheduled. God damn so good Cloud. Um, uh, yeah, we so we've been talking about scoring a lot and signal recognition. We got a workshop coming up on Wednesday about, okay, we've had countless countless episodes in series about why and, and what, uh, and even how from a theoretical perspective. On Wednesday we're getting into HubSpot. Even later today, uh, with Casey and and Riley after this, we're going to start building some stuff in HubSpot because it's all about can you ask HubSpot to capture the right signals that allow you to behave in this way and be real time responsive, right? And so if you do, and by the way HubSpot's already got buyer intent signals right? Coming into your portal, right? And imagine if as a business you're able to sit down and decide, oh, every time there's a post on LinkedIn about an article about this thing and we're there to respond quickly, we have valuable relationships formed from there, we get business, whatever's important to you. One thing that does make me happy is I'm hearing more and more conversations becoming a KPI of interest uh for for a lot of organizations, uh, which is right that that's what it needs to be, not leads, conversations. But when we, when we show up that quickly to a LinkedIn post, we'll first respond and we start a conversation, let's say we close like 80% of that business, right? You have the tools now in HubSpot and, and lots of other tools that can allow you that like to be able to see the LinkedIn post, measure it, respond, measure what happens after that, right? But if you're in a habit of, oh, I got to get my, uh, I got to get my outbound calling done from 10:00 to 12:00, right? I don't have time for LinkedIn, right? Naturally, you've forced yourself I can't do anything but call right now. So there could be like 10 more articles published on LinkedIn right now and we know that it's a great idea for us to respond to those articles and we're not, or our best person can't because they're supposed to be making calls right now. Yeah, Tony Dowling: That's a brilliant example. And you can't no nobody would argue with that. And and in fact, you know you feel the truth of it. You we've done it. We've all done it. We've all responded to articles asking for help. Uh funnily enough, LinkedIn started showing me them again. somebody's obviously tweaked the algorithm again. I've seen a couple of uh I'm thinking about changing my CRM and and so on and so on. Um, you know, if if only there was a way uh to find out what was going on in on LinkedIn all of the world or let's say, well, yeah, there is. You know, we we we've as you say, we've we've already got it and we're blinded to it by the consistency, by the let's keep doing what we've always done. And that's what it boils down to, isn't it? If you always do what you always did, you're always going to get what you always got. Well, I mean, there's another one that should be on here. That's not the case anymore either because the it's just diminishing returns. If you always do what you always did, you're just going to get smaller and smaller. Everything's going to diminish. Um, it it it's it's fascinating. say the impact of this stuff, uh, and and particularly the human side of it, you know, I'm with you and George on uh my interest, I'm much more about how we're going to behave. Uh, you know, how how do we adapt to this world? What what what becomes valuable to us? Um, and it's no wonder there's so many dystopian visions, you know, for every kind of uh, uh, heavenly vision, um, the the dystopian version of it. Um, and and and you can sort of see why. Chris Carolan: Yeah. And like I think we'll finish up on this last one because a lot it speaks to a lot, uh, of, of this change that we're suggesting. Um, eat the frog first. Uh, the constraint, willpower delete depletes throughout the day. Do the hard thing early when energy is highest. Uh, what's changed? The right hard thing isn't always clear at 7:00 a.m. Sometimes it reveals itself at 2:00 p.m. Presence reveals priority. The new reality, eat the frog when you see the frog. Don't force yesterday's frog onto today's plate. Um, and and there's been another example that I've talked about a couple times on this show is this realization from a leader to say, hey, like process management and documentation is not as hard as it used to be. Like, we don't have to wait till the end of your audit to the end of quarter review of the quality management system. We're here right now feeling this pain. We're going to get together for 15 minutes. We're going to record everything we say and then by the end of the next hour, we will have a brand new documented process. Right? He didn't get there until he experienced the ability to do that. But that is exactly what we're talking about here where if he had like so many of us say like it, it's kind of like if you can't get it done in two minutes, like you got to put it on the backlog shelf, right? And