Value-First Platform: HubSpot for non-HubSpot People

[00:04] **Introduction** Chris Carolan: Good afternoon, LinkedIn friends, Value First Nation. Welcome to another episode of Value First platform here with, uh, Trisha Merriam. How are you doing, Trisha? Trisha Merriam: I'm great. How are you? Chris Carolan: Doing, uh, wonderful. Uh, better than, probably a little better than you, to be honest, since I didn't have to deal with the, the snowblower issues that you were telling me you had to deal with today. Trisha Merriam: Um, snowblower, generator. It's just, it's just a season for dealing with mechanical things. Chris Carolan: Yeah. Um, and, uh, luckily, that's not, well, at least for me. Again, I, I, uh, I'm gonna stop digging this hole that I'm digging right now. Uh, and focus on what we came here to talk about. Um, which usually every week we're just trying to dig into, uh, you know, how do we get the message through about what can happen in HubSpot? Um, and, uh, behind the scenes here, as we're getting ready for this, I've just started creating some content around this, trying to, um, basically introduce HubSpot to, uh, non-HubSpot people, right? And doing it in a way that is meaningful without saying, oh, the contacts and the companies and the deals and the workflows and the HubSpot, HubSpot, HubSpot, right? Because that shuts everybody off. Trisha Merriam: It really does. Chris Carolan: Also being careful not to come up with my own versions of that, like customer value platform and like phrases that people have never heard before that also need to be explained. Um, but something interesting that I want to dig into is when I first made this, and you can see it in the URL up here, is HubSpot beginners, right? And that's the thought of people starting to use HubSpot. But when you, that's doesn't quite hit because a lot, they're not beginners, right? They've been doing this a long time. They're, they're veterans. They know what they're doing. They just haven't like seen HubSpot before, or they've heard lots of different things about HubSpot. And speaks to the challenge I think of trying to introduce it, but, uh, uh, thank you Trisha for helping me get to this very straightforward title, you know, we're just trying to get non-HubSpot people, uh, understanding of what, what they can do in HubSpot, yeah? Trisha Merriam: Yeah. I mean, the universe of people who doesn't know what, who don't know what HubSpot is, is much greater than the universe who, who do. Um, I had, uh, I'm getting a new roof on the house and the guy that sold me the roof, you know, when we signed paperwork, he was, he pulled up Salesforce. And we were, we had a little chat about CRMs, and I mentioned that I, you know, I'm a freelancer, an admin for, you know, a CRM, and he's like, which one? He'd never heard of it. He'd never heard of it. Um, so I encounter that all, all the time. I encountered people who've heard really bad things about HubSpot, as if it's just like a really junky replacement for Salesforce, you know, like a, a like a a fake CRM, like a toy CRM, not a real CRM. Chris Carolan: Yes. Trisha Merriam: There, so you're, you're fighting either complete ignorance, misconceptions, um, all kinds of stuff. Chris Carolan: Yeah. Trisha Merriam: And then also just like, there's people who, uh, aren't even like, there's people that work off of spreadsheets. They, like, they don't even care. Like, they, they're never gonna care about CRMs the way that you and I do, deeply. They're, they got a job to do, which is selling more, driving more pipeline. They don't care about this. So, how do you get their attention? Because they don't, they already don't care. Chris Carolan: Right. Um, and so I think I'm not necessarily stumbling on it, but what, what I'm realizing is like the concept of unified customer view, right? Apparently, it's easy, easy to market, like from the marketing perspective, because we see that, right? From HubSpot, we see those words. But I've almost never heard it from a sales perspective. I certainly don't hear about people like implementing specifically to that goal, right? Um, it's not a, a quick win goal, for sure, usually. What I'm finding is it's a, it's a measurable, it's not even the right word. It's, it's a tangible, practical thing to put out there and say, either we have it or we don't. And if we agree that it's a good idea, then let's set a goal, and the whole time it's, it's a yes or no answer. And if it's no, what are we doing to turn it into yes? Um, so finding, so this little, little course here that I'm starting to put together, is from that concept of like tightly linking HubSpot with like business goals, like really creating customer value, you know, for not only people using HubSpot, for, but when you do that for people using HubSpot, then their customers, and everybody's generating value, which is the goal of most businesses, um, in in some regard. Uh, but the unified system is really, I think the battle is it's not a, is communicating that it's not a pipe dream anymore. Like, it doesn't have to be, right? It's not the technology anymore. It's not multiple systems. Um, so, uh, I'm really excited by the success that I've had of this resonating with leadership, like people on leadership teams that are usually like, you know, you have to like try to manufacture ways to make HubSpot important, right? And like almost eventually you get to the place where it's like lead scoring, or lead management, or funnel analysis, or whatever, right? And then it's that system. That's what turns it into the toy system, like if we're being honest, because that stuff is so far away from the dollars and cents, uh, bottom line of the business, right? Um, so, how do you, uh, what was the last time you tried to introduce HubSpot to a, a non-HubSpot person? Trisha Merriam: Funny you should ask. So I have a, I have a phrase for you that I'd like you to think about in context of unified customer view, which is the phrase minimum viable product. And so, uh, I'm part of a team that's selling HubSpot to a client that's currently on Salesforce. And I think they're very warm to the idea. And yet, and yet, when they're talking about what phase one will look like, they're talking about minimum viable product. In which case, I'm guessing that a lot of the integrations that would be necessary to truly create a unified, because they have all kinds of stuff living in different systems, they're not, how do you bridge that gap, Chris? How do you, how do you convince them that that's not a phase two, that that's not minimum viable, or that it is minimum viable? Chris Carolan: Right. Now, I think that's fair, and we'll, we'll go through some stuff today, I think. It's really the concept of unified customer view is that finding a way to make that the north star that the leadership can bang on instead of lead numbers and all the other things that are just immediately go to tactics and performance and KPIs, like that just make the problem worse. Trisha Merriam: Mm-hmm. Chris Carolan: Um, it's almost like a perfect balance where it's, it's super real and tangible. People want it, but you can't, you, you literally like just can't get too in the weeds with it. Like you can't measure it like by the person, by the minute. Um, so if we can just put that out there and then start building the bridge in that direction, that's the goal. Like, and the bridge, you get to decide what MVP is, right? And that's where, um, setting the tone and getting the leader to set that tone, right? So important, because the leader doesn't wanna be involved in this process, usually, at least in a most-sized businesses, if we're being honest. Um, unless you find that leader who's like the techy. They're the IT, like they do all that stuff. Uh, they either do all of it or they don't know you any of it. In, in my experience. Um, so for those that are just ready to like bolt out of the conversation, uh, and this is a way to to keep them engaged because it allows them to engage at a very business outcome level without, like all they can do to help and like get nosy with it, is to say things like, oh, where's that data? What, how do we get that data in here, right? Um, so I think that's where it's sitting down with people. And let me see if I can, um, bring up, uh, this page. So trying hard to basically, so it starts with some kind of this is what a unified view, like could be, right? Um, and this is just a rendition of kind of how a HubSpot record is set up, right? And can these things look crazy because they're on a website, but we can do things like this, UI extensions and, right? There's lots of magic that can happen in HubSpot, but it all requires data underneath to make these pictures, right? To be able to create a view for the customer team, and for the operations team, and the finance team, and revenue views, business context, right? Team enablement. Uh, so I think it's showing them this, and usually you can proof of concept this with one person. It's like, what do you need to know to sell? Basically. You're about to call somebody, you're about to do a demo. What do you wanna see in this one view, right? That'll help you do that well, right? Um, if somebody's calling with the help desk ticket, right? Like, what do you need to see on this one screen? And you have enough of those conversations, then it bec, that's why the leader needs to be involved, right? Because usually those are different answers if you're talking to sales or service, or marketing. Trisha Merriam: Mm-hmm. Chris Carolan: That's why there's no way to get around, in my opinion, uh, the leader being responsible for this, like, mission. Um, because at some point, they're gonna have to say like, this, this is the priority. Like, this is step one. This is what MVP is, right? So that we can make progress and we don't have teams, you know, basically fighting over what could be. Uh, so if we can get people in the room of just sitting down to have that conversation and, and know, this is possible. So now that you know what's possible, what comes to mind in things that you, you want to see, right? On this view. And that's where things like, oh, um, you know, last time I was on a call, I had their LinkedIn profile up and I saw this post that they made, and we started talking about that. Like, okay, like that's something we could get in here now, right? Uh, getting people to think outside the box in terms of what's supposed to be in a CRM, right? That's why I, there's a challenge of like CRM and marketing automation platform and sales and, right? It's just everybody has their own definitions of those things. That's part of why, uh, I think HubSpot went the route of customer platform, because I mean, honestly, that's what it is. It's designed to support your whole customer team in in one place. Trisha Merriam: Mm-hmm. Chris Carolan: Um, so that's really like cementing this as like the goal of what we're doing with HubSpot is like that's step zero, and now we can decide what MVPs actually could even look like that we can build on it, and it's not just, oh, we need, we need quick time to value, so let's get some, some emails done, so we can get leads, right? That's not an MVP, that's just like a tactic to like move the needle this month. We can't build on it, right? It's never gonna turn into maximum viable product, if that's even a thing. Uh, but, um, so, right, and then like defining what this means for the business, right? Because we've already talked about how defining what clean data is is not easy. What complete data is, right? It's a very similar kind of conversation, except like with an, I think a more visual, almost emotional sometimes outcome, instead of like, oh, I guess we need these 10 fields and then we'll, as long as we have these 10 fields and, uh, they're filled out right and we trust the data, then we've got clean data. It's like, no, there's there's a lot more, more to it than that. So I think getting the team, um, to talk about what this actually means, uh, for the business, is, is part of the goal. And I think we can have more productive conversations about where we need to go when it's this this as a guiding, guiding light versus, you know, clean, clean data. For example, even AI data readiness, which is what we've been talking about here, right? Trisha Merriam: I also think that those conversations are most productive when you have people from all of the teams together at once. And that, just in this call that I had yesterday, somebody from the onboarding team had some, like they got it first. And they, the wheel, I could see the wheel starting to turn and they said, wait, could we have this? I'm like, yes, you can have that. Could we, could we get like, could I get this information in front of my account management team? And I'm like, yes, you absolutely can. Um, and for them this is data that's, you know, siloed somewhere else at this point in time. Um, so by having everybody together, it does a couple of things. Number one, whenever you're meeting with a single team, they're not, they're never thinking about what the next team needs, or what other teams need. And when they're guessing, they're often like only getting it about 20% right. So, number one, you really need to have multiple perspectives in there. Number two, as soon as they start seeing other people engage and the kinds of questions they're asking, at the very least, it sort of like drops a pin in their, in their thought process, or like opens them up to other possibilities that they might be able to, you know, things that they might be able to take advantage of within their own space. Um, so that one person on that call yesterday from the account management team just really woke up the room. Chris Carolan: Yeah. Yeah, it's really as simple as that, like, and this is kind of coming from a place of multiple times this year, uh, you know, people have said to me that they like the way I think about HubSpot, right? And that's where I'm at a point where, you know, I've unlocked the vibe coding fun and I'm like, all right, time to help others think this way, like in any way, shape or form, um, because reframing the conversation allows for that space. Like it like the reason the leader gets involved, right? It's to make sure multiple teams, it's much easier when you're, like if it's the marketing person that brings this in, which that, which was me inside of an organization, I had the champion, I had like, the, the president was the champion of bringing me in, right? So I've got the buy in on some level. But when it's, oh, Chris is gonna do digital marketing, right? That's completely different from you know, everything we're about to talk about, because that's where people hear, oh, leads. Chris is doing lead gen. Finally, we're gonna get some lead gen, right? And, and even though I could I was successful at getting people to stop asking me for leads, they didn't know what else to ask me for, right? Um, but that conversation that you just mentioned, like if I, if most often, and this is like a terrible problem with AI right now, like I can't for the life of me get past this with Claude of trying to correct constantly what HubSpot is and what it can do. Like, it's just stuck in this world where HubSpot is the marketing, is the marketing platform. So obviously anything besides contacts, companies and deals must be a custom object. Um, so it runs deep, and but when you're stuck thinking, oh, HubSpot, like if if we get called into that meeting and we're in support or service, it's like, oh man, isn't that the leads? Isn't that where the leads come in, right? I'm even, why am I'm in, I'm in service. Like, what do I need to be here for? Uh, you shut off the idea generation, but as soon as it changes to this, like, oh, now the whole life cycle is, is up for grabs and, oh yeah, these five calls a day that I get from sales because they can't see what's going on, I, I don't like those calls. Sales doesn't like asking me about them, but there's literally no other way, because we don't have a place to go to fully understand like this other human being, right? And that's the kind of relates to the shift here, like when you can enable that shift of mindset and shift of framing, all of a sudden, it's like, okay, we're it's like an immediately shift from silo thinking to, okay, we're all in this like together, right? And it's just so powerful, uh, when you see it happen. Trisha Merriam: You've got a list of short list of like six questions somewhere. I don't know if it's this page or a different page, but I think they're so helpful for putting in front of people and saying like, wouldn't wouldn't these things, don't you think that these would be valuable for you? Um, and it's, they're all examples of like how the the transition from from sales to onboarding can be more seamless when information is transferred from one place to another. It's probably that page. Chris Carolan: Uh, you're talking about, it's like six questions? Trisha Merriam: This one? No. It's more like a, um, are these problem, I think it's sort of like six problems that are these, do these six things problems resonate with you? Are they obstacles in your company? Anyway, Chris Carolan: Okay. Trisha Merriam: I'll have to find that. Chris Carolan: Sounds good. Trisha Merriam: I really like that. Wherever that is, I'll find it for you. I'll share it with you. I think that those are just really, really helpful examples for helping people kind of understand what a unified view is gonna give them. Chris Carolan: Yeah. Um, I will, uh, make a note to find that for sure. Um, but it really does, so once you get open your, your mind up, like see customer platform. Like, it enables these other, uh, these outcomes of unified customer review, like who are these people really, right? Like everywhere, not just in our funnel, right? Which is what we usually see. Like the whole big point of Value First is to not fall into the leads trap because that dehumanizes the process and we don't know who they are. We jump on calls and like, oh yeah, you signed up for a demo, so clearly I've got your full attention and I'm just gonna run through this script and then you're gonna buy. And uh, that's not how it works out. Um, likewise on the, on the service side of things, like, um, you know, do you actually understand their problems? Are are we just like being reactive and we'll get to it when we get to it, right? Uh, and you start to understand who they are and where they're at on their journey, again, it changes the, the behavior on the team. Um, and so these four views, the unified customer view, unified revenue view, uh, and something powerful is happening here right now. Um, because again, like I started down this path because things like quote to cash optimization and like just systematizing that in any way, um, has not been great. Like, connecting the systems of finance with the systems of customer data has not gone well. Like, unless you've got like million dollar implementations and teams of people administering the systems and you're in Fortune 100, Fortune 500, even those places, like, you'd be shocked to find some of those places living off of spreadsheets in certain, certain teams and certain departments. Um, and, uh, but HubSpot, now that it has the place for commerce data, right? One of the biggest fails, but also one of the biggest, like every single leader wants this outcome, uh, forecasts that they trust, that they can trust. Like, pipeline, like deal, I'm not talking about like deal percentages. Even if it was deal stage percentages, like deal stage percentages that were real. Trisha Merriam: Yeah, I've never never met a CEO that was happy with deal stage percentages. Never. Never. Chris Carolan: Right. Trisha Merriam: Yeah. Chris Carolan: And now that we can bring revenue, uh, and post-sales commerce data into HubSpot, which is the place which thankfully was always the marketing platform, you can go from first signal to dollars cleanly in a system that's easy to use once it's set up and like for the first time ever, like having visibility in a way that you've never had it before is going to be and will be a huge unlock. That's why there's this element of like figuring out how much to show to like not over promise but also make sure it's not just make believe, right? Especially on this side where HubSpot was always for, um, you know, the make it pretty party planners department, and now we're talking like revenue and finance, it's a whole different world. Um, but it's, it's super powerful. And of course, people get onboard with this goal. A lot of what we're talking about is how do we help make it tangible? And what are the first steps we need to take? Because AI cannot solve it for us, right? Um, so when you say you haven't seen it or heard it from leaders, like what, um, are there any use cases where people have gotten close or what do they do? What do they do when instead? Trisha Merriam: When they don't have a unified revenue view? Chris Carolan: Just when they don't trust the, the forecast or the percentages and Oh. It's uh, it's horrible for the organization because, uh, first of all, when sales misses a month or a quarter, it's bad for everybody. Like the sales team gets demoralized. The sales leader is punished. The CEO loses faith in the sales leader. Often the Salesforce admin team loses credibility. Like no, nobody is in a good mood. Um, and it leads to then all kinds of cycles of trying to fix a system that I think is inherently flawed and not able to produce great results anyway. But you know, behind that as well, there are still a lot of sales leaders who like do all their calculations in an Excel spreadsheet and then like try to bring them over into Salesforce/HubSpot and it, so it doesn't really work. Um, and that's why yeah, we we need to move beyond just basic percentage levels at stages into something more intelligent, sophisticated to fuel forecasting so that, I mean, leadership, the board, everybody needs to have more faith in the numbers and it makes everybody, I don't know, just it does a lot for, for teams, for relationships when you can trust those numbers and and it's so damaging when you can't. Chris Carolan: Yeah. Because because it creates untrustworthy numbers that you then get held accountable to. Trisha Merriam: Mhm. Chris Carolan: Right. And it was always just kind of mind-blowing, but now you understand how it happens, um, when everybody knows the game being played, it's like, okay, we need to go up this percentage this, this next year. Um, so we're gonna sell twice as much of these and maybe like 30% more of this group. Meanwhile there's no pipeline insight, like to support this. It's just like back calculating from the from the financial numbers that we need to hit. And all of a sudden and granted like it's a self-fulfilling prophecy almost where sales will work to the number and they will get, get that done, uh, somehow, but the whole time you're just not creating any kind of trust in the, in the system. And, um, because you create the faith. Like you manufacture the faith. When you're pulling data out of the systems, creating your narrative for your business line or for your, uh, your presentation to the board, it's like, well, they're not gonna like this, but they'll like this. So we'll make this bigger. And then we'll, we'll make this smaller, but not too much. Like just most ridiculous conversations that you could ever be a part of, because it's all based on, on not, not reality, right? Like we can't actually look and that's where it's like HubSpot's not gonna execute, uh, all this stuff for you. It's not gonna help you sell twice as much just because you're gonna start plugging data in. But the visibility, the fact that it's going to base you in what reality actually is, now you can make decisions, and when you can see people shift from the Monday morning meeting where it's talking about whether or not the data is good and moving from that to, okay, of course the data is good. We all know what it looks like. It's, we don't have to have those conversations anymore. We talk about strategy. Like how do we close this big deal? How do we help Trisha close this big deal that she's working on, right? Um, or Trisha, you closed a big deal last week. Help us understand what happened. Like how can more, how can we get more deals like that, right? When you can create this, this visibility, which I think has always been the magic of HubSpot, like when you don't have to fight against silos and people just start collaborating better and communicating better, right? Uh, you can't afford to do that when you, at least traditionally, when you couldn't put email permissions up everywhere and uh, like we can now, um, it was, it was my gorilla tactic for forcing collaboration. Just bringing stuff into HubSpot, and now teams there was transparency that made people feel uncomfortable. I realized the error of my ways now, uh, about how that doesn't always work out. But it was a forcing function of like, okay, well, you want this leads stuff to happen. That means you need the data. So just get it in here. It's that important to you. And now other people on the team can see it and uh, you know, it just brings people closer together, right? Um, so, and I think these two together, because these four are all, they're always separate, right? Like the, the best case you have is that that your unified customer view is in, in, in the head of the sales team, right? Or or the service team. Anybody who's interacting with customers regularly, like, because they have to create that unified understanding in order to serve effectively and and hit their numbers. Um, and then the revenue view, like comes up to the management, you know, level, leadership level and stays there. That's why they're the ones crafting the numbers and the decks and they gather everything and I know we don't trust the percentages, but just let's have a call and we'll talk it through and then I'll put some percentages on it, right? Uh, so because that's how it works, we depending on the business, whether it's business development or marketing or, you know, engineering team, like they're the ones with, they're talking to the market, they're developing product, they're doing voice of customer stuff. They, they, they've got business context in this separate place, right? Of what's our stands in the market, um, like, are we solving the problem like intelligence, honestly. But separating it from like actual customer reality of, of the business. So it's like, oh, man, there's a huge opportunity in the market here. Let's just add it in, and we'll start developing that and now go sell it. Like, we're gonna develop it, and now you go sell it and we haven't talked about pricing strategy and, right? Trisha Merriam: Quick, what is this piece? Because I don't, I don't really understand what this piece is. And this piece, I mean, unified business context. What is that that is separate from the customer data, the revenue data? Chris Carolan: Right. So unified customer review is all about understanding where all the humans that we care about are at any point in the journey, like at all times. How they got to us, what happened after and everything, everything in between. Revenue is is how that relates to basically the health of of the the bottom line of the business, like is that path we just described like actually generating revenue in the right spots or are we missing a bunch of retention and renewal and, you know, uh, and this is this is where it gets into operational, um, outcomes related to that information. Because I, if you sit on those calls, most, a lot of times what's driving that forced like, oh, we need to know the numbers. How much are you gonna sell? Because we've gotta you've gotta build it. We've got to build it all year and if you're telling us you're gonna sell 3,000 units and we only made 1,500 last year, right? Like, we need to know and, and by the way, can you put a trust index behind that? Because that's a huge jump that we have to invest in? Trisha Merriam: Mm-hmm. Chris Carolan: Right? And that's gonna come from what's actually happening on the ground with the customer facing teams, but also what's happening in the market, right? And that's where AI, so the two lower views basically put AI in a position to like have this not be such a gut, gut feel. Like, what do we actually know, right? Based on data. And this is where HubSpot's giving us lots of signals that are coming in, um, related and unrelated to like the people that we have deals for in the CRM, what does that picture mean, right? Trisha Merriam: Let me ask you a question. Is this, is this or is this just a piece? Unified operational demands, so that you have understanding of like what your account management team staffing needs to look like in the next three quarters, and the customer success team and the implementations team and the solutions team. Is it that? Or or is that just a piece of it? Chris Carolan: Um, I think this is where you put the it's, it's the whole thing, um, in terms of I think we have some good examples over here and I should stop trying to recreate the wheel. So we got pattern recognition, right? Signals, like what do we do, what does those signals mean for our business? Yes, Trisha said this happened right before the deal, but was it lucky? Like, was it, did it happen 10 other times and we just haven't seen it and now we should develop that consulting business that we've always been talking about? Mm. Uh, historical context, um, measurable prediction and experimentation, right? You talk about things like AB AB testing, most of the time people are doing that without like statistically significant data sets and like it's kind of just marketing doing their thing. Oh, oh, this word worked better. This color worked better, but did it like does it relate to whatever else the business is doing? Um, and like all the way from account level to like overall for the business, right? Like this, like what similar situations have we seen before, right? This always comes up verbally and yet we don't track it very well, like in our systems, mm-hmm, outside of, oh, let's get some buyer intent data and we've got this ICP. So let's build all these look alike audiences. Meanwhile, there's some very good look alike audiences inside of our CRM, inside of our customer base where you can very easily show and this is what the Amazons of the world are good at. Oh, 100 other customers bought this thing, that means you're 90% probably gonna buy this other thing, right? So we're gonna put that right in front of you. Trisha Merriam: Mm-hmm. Chris Carolan: Um, and honestly, I think it's this question, right? Like this is the place where you get confidence around this, like what should we do next? Like, what does it actually mean? Like for the business, right? Um, because as we talk about the last view, unified team enablement, people wanna start there often, like, how do I track what people are doing? Like, let's give them the tools they need to get the job done. Meanwhile, the data is all over the place. And nobody has any insight. Uh, most of it's not actionable, so it takes that daily interaction of like, okay, I'm in it right now. How did this go last week? Oh yeah, I think this thing this thing worked, so I'm gonna go with that play again. Oh, different customer. It didn't work. Not, not the right thing to be doing, right? So, I think that's, is that a helpful way to think about it? In terms of action ability? Trisha Merriam: Yeah. Chris Carolan: Right. Um, because this is like, the difference now is that we have AI to help with this. But honestly, your customer facing team has been the one responsible for this, right? Like in the moment. Like what should we do next? Well, I have to decide that in the next 30 seconds while I'm on this call, so let me get as much context as I can. And let me get Trisha on the phone, or I'm gonna yell across the office, right? Uh, let me bring my expert in. Like they, they should be, let's see if they can jump on this Zoom call right now, right? That is live unification of, of context. The other spot is where the leader is the one doing this. They're gathering all the slides from everybody to then present it to the board, right? And it stays in those slide decks, right? Even that process right now, if you could just take any part of that process and start feeding AI, like this is what we do to unify context, man, but you have to kind of call it out like this, right? Like it has to be called. This is where I, I think I'm getting to like the practical outcome. Like if we call if we can name it and define it, then we can start making decisions like, oh, yeah, let's feed these slides to AI, because then we can guide AI on what it means to our business. Mm-hmm. And it can say things like, yeah, we should make a spot for this in the CRM. But this kind of thing doesn't make sense to put in a CRM, but it's important, but let's figure out a different way to add it to the process. Um, once you get that in place, where are our assumptions and misconceptions? Like things that we thought were true that aren'